Take a photo of a barcode or cover
zen's review against another edition
2.0
Ho veramente così tante cose da dire su questo libro che non so da dove iniziare, ma so che a fine recensione avrò dimenticato almeno la metà delle cose. Bene così.
Per prima cosa, questo libro si stacca tantissimo dal precedente: qui la trama e la narrazione sono solo scuse per svendere un saggio socio-economico-politico.
Il problema è che fino a metà questo libro regge anche. Sembra avere delle buone basi: un'esterna visita il mondo dei primi del '900 e si ritrova disgustata dalle condizioni sociali ed economiche di tutte le nazioni e delle persone che ci vivono dentro. Ci può stare, ripeto, ma poi si arriva alla metà del libro.
È evidente che la scrittrice sia una scienziata: si parla di numeri, percentuali, tecniche di economia e altro. E non sarebbe nemmeno quello il problema, se poi la questione sociale fosse stata trattata come di dovere.
Una donna che prende in giro altre donne non si può sentire – men che meno una donna che prende in giro le prime femministe per i loro metodi confusionari. Un gruppo che ha il coraggio, per la prima volta e da solo, di uscire da regole fisse, non solo sociali ma anche politiche, non può essere preso in giro solo perché "disorganizzato". Si capisce che la Gilman al tempo non era d'accordo con le scelte delle donne, con il femminismo, con le reazioni delle donne al suddetto femminismo, ma a questa pare sfuggire il punto focale: erano le prime. E quando si è i primi si va a tentativi. E andare a tentativi significa anche avere alcuni pregiudizi verso sé stessi, avere difficoltà a scavalcare visioni che la società ci impone.
La parte divertente? Pure la Gilman lo fa. Si dimentica bellamente la parte del razzismo – che c'è, e arriva benissimo anche dalle sue parole. E allora dove sta la coerenza? Facile: la Gilman stessa non è conscia di tutto ciò che dice, perché alcune cose (ad esempio, appunto, la questione razziale) le sono state insegnate così e basta. E, come sopra, il motivo è lo stesso: perché è stata una delle prime a farsi avanti.
Trovo comunque che l'incoerenza di fondo non mi abbia fatto apprezzare questo romanzo, che poi romanzo non è. È infatti un saggio camuffato male. I pensieri vengono trasmessi principalmente tramite dialogo, che in questo caso specifico funziona, ma fa sembrare il libro come una conferenza, più che come un vero e proprio romanzo. Presumo che questo faccia parte dell'idea di realismo della Gilman, per cui su questo non posso dire niente.
In più c'è sempre l'idea che donna = madre che ancora non mi garba troppo.
Ci sono delle idee di base che ho apprezzato, altre che sono state appena accennate e non approfondite, altre ancora che non ho apprezzato nemmeno per sbaglio, e proprio per questo posso dire che capisco che questo libro abbia una profonda importanza nella letteratura femminista, soprattutto perché porta molte nuove idee, ma allo stesso tempo, in questo momento storico, questo è un romanzo (libro) brutto. Forse pure più di Herland.
Per prima cosa, questo libro si stacca tantissimo dal precedente: qui la trama e la narrazione sono solo scuse per svendere un saggio socio-economico-politico.
Il problema è che fino a metà questo libro regge anche. Sembra avere delle buone basi: un'esterna visita il mondo dei primi del '900 e si ritrova disgustata dalle condizioni sociali ed economiche di tutte le nazioni e delle persone che ci vivono dentro. Ci può stare, ripeto, ma poi si arriva alla metà del libro.
È evidente che la scrittrice sia una scienziata: si parla di numeri, percentuali, tecniche di economia e altro. E non sarebbe nemmeno quello il problema, se poi la questione sociale fosse stata trattata come di dovere.
Una donna che prende in giro altre donne non si può sentire – men che meno una donna che prende in giro le prime femministe per i loro metodi confusionari. Un gruppo che ha il coraggio, per la prima volta e da solo, di uscire da regole fisse, non solo sociali ma anche politiche, non può essere preso in giro solo perché "disorganizzato". Si capisce che la Gilman al tempo non era d'accordo con le scelte delle donne, con il femminismo, con le reazioni delle donne al suddetto femminismo, ma a questa pare sfuggire il punto focale: erano le prime. E quando si è i primi si va a tentativi. E andare a tentativi significa anche avere alcuni pregiudizi verso sé stessi, avere difficoltà a scavalcare visioni che la società ci impone.
La parte divertente? Pure la Gilman lo fa. Si dimentica bellamente la parte del razzismo – che c'è, e arriva benissimo anche dalle sue parole. E allora dove sta la coerenza? Facile: la Gilman stessa non è conscia di tutto ciò che dice, perché alcune cose (ad esempio, appunto, la questione razziale) le sono state insegnate così e basta. E, come sopra, il motivo è lo stesso: perché è stata una delle prime a farsi avanti.
Trovo comunque che l'incoerenza di fondo non mi abbia fatto apprezzare questo romanzo, che poi romanzo non è. È infatti un saggio camuffato male. I pensieri vengono trasmessi principalmente tramite dialogo, che in questo caso specifico funziona, ma fa sembrare il libro come una conferenza, più che come un vero e proprio romanzo. Presumo che questo faccia parte dell'idea di realismo della Gilman, per cui su questo non posso dire niente.
In più c'è sempre l'idea che donna = madre che ancora non mi garba troppo.
Ci sono delle idee di base che ho apprezzato, altre che sono state appena accennate e non approfondite, altre ancora che non ho apprezzato nemmeno per sbaglio, e proprio per questo posso dire che capisco che questo libro abbia una profonda importanza nella letteratura femminista, soprattutto perché porta molte nuove idee, ma allo stesso tempo, in questo momento storico, questo è un romanzo (libro) brutto. Forse pure più di Herland.
poisonenvy's review against another edition
challenging
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? N/A
- Strong character development? No
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? No
2.0
Despite not caring for either Moving the Mountain or Herland, Herland ended in such a way that I felt compelled to read With Her in Ourland.
At the end of Herland, Van Dyke and his wife, Ellador, have decided to leave the utopian Herland in order to show Ellador the greater world, for a two-fold purpose: to get the world's measure and see how it's run, see if it would be appropriate or desirable to introduce Herland to it.
The go first to Europe, and the Great War where World War I is in progress; it's rather a shock to Ellador, who has lived in a country that has been at peace and has known nothing like war at all for close to 6000 years. Then they go to Asia, before finally making it to America. Ellador is not impressed by what she sees, has plenty of criticisms, but she has some measure of hope.
In keeping with the theme of the other books, this one is again didactic, perhaps even more so than the previous ones. There's little thought given to plot or characters, and it's more use as a vessel for Gilman to get her thoughts down on paper.
Gilman does seem to have a stronger ability to see faults than to come up with solutions, and in that way, this book was stronger than the previous two. But her general racism and xenophobia manages to shine through, and in the last quarter of the book, we're slapped full in the face with some pretty intense antisemitism. The culthood surrounding motherhood still makes my skin crawl.
Her ideas on education and community supports still shine through, even if her general view of ecology is "if it's not useful specifically and only for humans, it shouldn't exist."
In the end, I don't think I'm especially glad that I decided to read all three books, but at the very least, at least all three of them were short (each of them being well under 200 pages).
At the end of Herland, Van Dyke and his wife, Ellador, have decided to leave the utopian Herland in order to show Ellador the greater world, for a two-fold purpose: to get the world's measure and see how it's run, see if it would be appropriate or desirable to introduce Herland to it.
The go first to Europe, and the Great War where World War I is in progress; it's rather a shock to Ellador, who has lived in a country that has been at peace and has known nothing like war at all for close to 6000 years. Then they go to Asia, before finally making it to America. Ellador is not impressed by what she sees, has plenty of criticisms, but she has some measure of hope.
In keeping with the theme of the other books, this one is again didactic, perhaps even more so than the previous ones. There's little thought given to plot or characters, and it's more use as a vessel for Gilman to get her thoughts down on paper.
Gilman does seem to have a stronger ability to see faults than to come up with solutions, and in that way, this book was stronger than the previous two. But her general racism and xenophobia manages to shine through, and in the last quarter of the book, we're slapped full in the face with some pretty intense antisemitism. The culthood surrounding motherhood still makes my skin crawl.
Her ideas on education and community supports still shine through, even if her general view of ecology is "if it's not useful specifically and only for humans, it shouldn't exist."
In the end, I don't think I'm especially glad that I decided to read all three books, but at the very least, at least all three of them were short (each of them being well under 200 pages).
ivellon's review against another edition
2.0
In the land of white feminism
This book contains some disgustingly racist and antisemitic views. Apart from that it is often very boring, but you will also find some interesting analyses of the society it was written in.
This book contains some disgustingly racist and antisemitic views. Apart from that it is often very boring, but you will also find some interesting analyses of the society it was written in.
wenchpixie's review against another edition
3.0
Written over a century ago by a white American woman, and filled with unconcious classism and racism (including that spectacularly ignorant ethnocentricsm that only seems to occur in people from countries where the group in power are incomers to the country themselves), but also has some interesting ideas - which we are still discussing today - about things like UBI and collaberation.
number9dream's review against another edition
2.0
It's such a confusing book. How can someone understand how so clearly how humanity works, but still be racist, anti-semitic and colonial. Some paragraphs were brilliant but mostly it was about how even though America is flawed it's still the greatest country, brushing over slavery and the genocide of the natives, cause they were savages.
bitinglime's review against another edition
2.0
I was leading a book club group, choosing Herland for the main book for discussion, but figured it wouldn't hurt to read the Herland trilogy in order to bring some more themes to the table for the discussion. I read all three in audiobook form, which can be found easily as they are all in the public domain.
This book's story starts off right at the end of Herland. In Herland, three men find a society of women and learn how their community is thriving. They marry three of the women, and one tries to commit marital rape but ultimately fails and is put on trial. He is banished from their society. With Her in Ourland starts with his exile. One of the other men misses his society and wants to leave with his wife, his wife is intrigued with life outside Herland, so she agrees to go. Much like the other books, the "story" is mostly at the beginning and end, with the middle mostly being a dialogue between the characters about Gilman's thoughts on society. In the end, the couple decide to go back to Herland.
This was written during WWI and before the 19th amendment, so as with the other books, my little disclaimer is that if you're going to read this book, then you should know there are a lot of outdated ideas. Out of the three books, I consider With Her in Ourland to be the worst because of how blatantly racist it is. It's a real shame because at first, I was getting into reading this because Gilman is so outspoken about religion at the beginning, which is just barely acceptable today in the right circles, but I can't imagine how completely extreme it would have been for her time. However, reading further, once the couple are out of Herland, they decide to travel to different places around the world before going to his previous home in America. There are some good points made, such as when they hear a girl screaming while getting her feet bound. Such a thing was terrible for the time and Gilman does note this, but she also misses some larger points overall. Most of the people they come across during their journey that aren't Anglo, were considered "savages" or were described by very damning stereotypes. When talking about how to better a society, the couple decide that it would be best to breed them with white people to not only change their physical appearance, but to change their behavior as if it's white people who are the purest of beings. Gilman was very pro-eugenics, and it even shows a bit in the first two books in this trilogy, but her thoughts in this book very much line up with white supremacy.
I just can't recommend this book over the first two. The race eugenics concepts Gilman advocates for are atrocious, even for her time. If you are to read this, read it for history's sake, but not for idealism.
This book's story starts off right at the end of Herland. In Herland, three men find a society of women and learn how their community is thriving. They marry three of the women, and one tries to commit marital rape but ultimately fails and is put on trial. He is banished from their society. With Her in Ourland starts with his exile. One of the other men misses his society and wants to leave with his wife, his wife is intrigued with life outside Herland, so she agrees to go. Much like the other books, the "story" is mostly at the beginning and end, with the middle mostly being a dialogue between the characters about Gilman's thoughts on society. In the end, the couple decide to go back to Herland.
This was written during WWI and before the 19th amendment, so as with the other books, my little disclaimer is that if you're going to read this book, then you should know there are a lot of outdated ideas. Out of the three books, I consider With Her in Ourland to be the worst because of how blatantly racist it is. It's a real shame because at first, I was getting into reading this because Gilman is so outspoken about religion at the beginning, which is just barely acceptable today in the right circles, but I can't imagine how completely extreme it would have been for her time. However, reading further, once the couple are out of Herland, they decide to travel to different places around the world before going to his previous home in America. There are some good points made, such as when they hear a girl screaming while getting her feet bound. Such a thing was terrible for the time and Gilman does note this, but she also misses some larger points overall. Most of the people they come across during their journey that aren't Anglo, were considered "savages" or were described by very damning stereotypes. When talking about how to better a society, the couple decide that it would be best to breed them with white people to not only change their physical appearance, but to change their behavior as if it's white people who are the purest of beings. Gilman was very pro-eugenics, and it even shows a bit in the first two books in this trilogy, but her thoughts in this book very much line up with white supremacy.
I just can't recommend this book over the first two. The race eugenics concepts Gilman advocates for are atrocious, even for her time. If you are to read this, read it for history's sake, but not for idealism.
library_brandy's review against another edition
2.0
Herland was interesting as a sociological utopian novel. This sequel, however, strips out the utopian part as the narrator and his Herland-native wife travel the globe before coming back to America. Unfortunately, the story and plot are all but non-existent as Ellador sees more and more of the world outside her perfect society, and the book becomes a mouthpiece for Gilman's critiques of American society, economics, race relations, and gender roles. While never moving fully into manifesto territory, With Her in Ourland is still preachy and vaguely condescending.
amber_insight's review against another edition
4.0
This was less story than Herland. This is more strictly a dissertation on the sociological issues our world faces, and a launch pad for solutions. But while less of a novel, it is no less in brilliance or relevancy... Still, a century later.